My Plan to Fix the Vikings

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Mothman
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am
I mean when Cook and Murray were both averaging 4.6 and 4.1 YPC, that tells me this OL was okay enough at run blocking in order to get a solid balance going during games.
Because it's an average, what it really says is they were good enough to do that in some games and that averaged out to those numbers. Cook averaged less than 4 ypc in more than half of his games this year (less than 3 in several of them).
More so Cook is the one that I am focused on. He was right on par when it comes to YPC with RBs such as Melvin Gordon, Zeke, Miller, Hunt, Kamara, Conner, Carson/Davis (seattle RBs), Ingram, etc. You dont average 4.6 YPC if your offensive line cant run block.
Again, it's not a black and white issue, where the OL either can or can't run block. Reducing it to that is far too simplistic. Any argument that literally suggesting they can't run the ball is a non-starter because it's demonstrably false.
Look at those offensive lines for the players above. Pit, Seattle, NO, KC, Dal, LAC, etc. Those teams all have really good OLs. Ours, is not good I get that, but they were definitely okay enough to get the job done when it came to run blocking. A team like Arizona is a team that truly couldnt run block. One of the best RBs in the game in David Johnson was averaging 3.6 YPC. THAT is a team that cannot run block. We averaged 22 attempts per game and for most of the year, Cousins was averaging over 40 passes per game. You're saying part of the reason we didnt commit to running the ball was because of the effectiveness of run plays. Well was dropping Cousins 40 times a game effective? No.
I'm not arguing against commitment to the run. I've advocated for it consistently for over a decade, including this season.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:13 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 am

Because it's an average, what it really says is they were good enough to do that in some games and that averaged out to those numbers. Cook averaged less than 4 ypc in more than half of his games this year (less than 3 in several of them).
So Melvin Gordon and Ezekiel Elliott could only do it in some games too? Alvin Kamara? Etc. Because they averaged the right about the same YPC that Cook did. Like I said, Arizona was a team that TRULY couldnt run block. DJ averaged 3.6 YPC. That's a top 5 RB in the NFL averaging under 3.6 YPC. That is a sure sign of an OL unable to run block. If you're averaging 4.6 YPC, your OL can run block decent enough to run way more than ~350 times on the year. Cook had the 19th best YPC in the NFL for RBs. But averaged WAY less carries per game than some of them did because of our OC. In the 18 games Zeke played in this year, he carried the ball 16 or more times in 16 of those 18 games. Dalvin Cook carried the ball more than 16 times in 1 of the 11 games he played (and the one he did, he went for 136 yards, a career high). Ezekiel Elliott averaged 4.7 YPC on the year. Dalvin Cook averaged 4.6. Sorry but I cant bring myself to say that this OL wasnt good at run blocking. They werent good, but they certainly werent "bad". It was enough to manage is my point.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:59 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:13 pm
Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 am

Because it's an average, what it really says is they were good enough to do that in some games and that averaged out to those numbers. Cook averaged less than 4 ypc in more than half of his games this year (less than 3 in several of them).
So Melvin Gordon and Ezekiel Elliott could only do it in some games too? Alvin Kamara? Etc. Because they averaged the right about the same YPC that Cook did.
Yes, that's how averages work.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Cliff » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:02 pm

Just like there would be some games where AP would run into a wall for 1-2 yards on 80% of his carries but then bust out a 90 yard run. His 100+ yards and a TD don't actually reflect that he was primarily ineffective in those cases. I think a lot of RB's have similar games.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:24 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:59 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:13 pm


So Melvin Gordon and Ezekiel Elliott could only do it in some games too? Alvin Kamara? Etc. Because they averaged the right about the same YPC that Cook did.
Yes, that's how averages work.
So then you're saying their OLs arent very good run blocking teams either? I am aware of how averages work Jim. I'm saying that you can use that argument for everything in the NFL. Nothing works ALL the time in the NFL. Bottom line is, Cook is right on par when it comes to average YPC with the best RBs in the NFL. Which in turn, usually means his OL is at least okay enough at run blocking to average 4.6 YPC
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Cliff wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:02 pm
Just like there would be some games where AP would run into a wall for 1-2 yards on 80% of his carries but then bust out a 90 yard run. His 100+ yards and a TD don't actually reflect that he was primarily ineffective in those cases. I think a lot of RB's have similar games.
Exactly.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:24 pm
So then you're saying their OLs arent very good run blocking teams either?
No. If that's what I meant, it's what I would have said.
I am aware of how averages work Jim. I'm saying that you can use that argument for everything in the NFL. Nothing works ALL the time in the NFL.
Right ... so it shouldn't be controversial to say the OL blocked well enough in some games for the Vikings to have maintained good balance on offense and yet you're arguing about that obvious (and demonstrable) point.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:44 pm

But we had two big rushing games. 3/16 with a 100 yard rusher.

How many games this season can you really point to and say we did a good job run blocking. When cook had 600 yards rushing but lead the league in average broken tackles and least amount of yards before contact... That's the oline. Next season you guys will see how big an improvement is made.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by S197 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:02 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:13 pm
Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 am

Because it's an average, what it really says is they were good enough to do that in some games and that averaged out to those numbers. Cook averaged less than 4 ypc in more than half of his games this year (less than 3 in several of them).
So Melvin Gordon and Ezekiel Elliott could only do it in some games too? Alvin Kamara? Etc. Because they averaged the right about the same YPC that Cook did. Like I said, Arizona was a team that TRULY couldnt run block. DJ averaged 3.6 YPC. That's a top 5 RB in the NFL averaging under 3.6 YPC. That is a sure sign of an OL unable to run block. If you're averaging 4.6 YPC, your OL can run block decent enough to run way more than ~350 times on the year. Cook had the 19th best YPC in the NFL for RBs. But averaged WAY less carries per game than some of them did because of our OC. In the 18 games Zeke played in this year, he carried the ball 16 or more times in 16 of those 18 games. Dalvin Cook carried the ball more than 16 times in 1 of the 11 games he played (and the one he did, he went for 136 yards, a career high). Ezekiel Elliott averaged 4.7 YPC on the year. Dalvin Cook averaged 4.6. Sorry but I cant bring myself to say that this OL wasnt good at run blocking. They werent good, but they certainly werent "bad". It was enough to manage is my point.
An average is more telling the more data points you have, in this case, number of carries. It's easier to skew with less carries because you have more outliers. Comparing a workhorse like Zeke to Cook is tough because Zeke is going to have a more accurate distribution. CJ Anderson's YPC looks great right now but it would surely fall over a full season of carries. I don't think anyone here thinks he's a 6 YPC runner.

This is what Stefanski and our OL did against the Bears:

Drive 1: We needed TWO yards and had two plays to do so, we got zero.
2nd & 2 at MIN 33
(14:26 - 1st) D.Cook right tackle to MIN 34 for 1 yard (L.Floyd).

3rd & 1 at MIN 34
(13:41 - 1st) L.Murray right guard to MIN 33 for -1 yards (A.Hicks)

Drive 2: Here you see a little more momentum until Murray gets stuffed behind the line resulting in a 3rd and 5.

1st & 10 at MIN 40
(5:58 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to MIN 42 for 2 yards (L.Floyd).

2nd & 10 at CHI 38
(4:29 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook left end to CHI 31 for 7 yards (B.Nichols).

3rd & 3 at CHI 31
(3:42 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to CHI 25 for 6 yards (K.Fuller).

1st & 10 at CHI 25
(2:57 - 1st) L.Murray right tackle to CHI 19 for 6 yards (R.Smith).

2nd & 4 at CHI 19
(2:15 - 1st) L.Murray right tackle to CHI 20 for -1 yards (A.Hicks).

Drive 3: One run for one yard

2nd & 10 at MIN 32
(14:07 - 2nd) L.Murray right end to MIN 33 for 1 yard (R.Smith).

Drive 4: No runs but a pass to Cook goes for -5 yards

Drive 5: 50 seconds left so passing situation

Drive 6: Drive 6 starts and ends similarly to Drive 1. Cook gets the ball on both 1st downs and goes backwards both times. Cousins manages to pick up the 1st in between.

1st & 10 at MIN 24
(11:22 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to MIN 23 for -1 yards (A.Hicks).

1st & 10 at MIN 46
(9:35 - 3rd) D.Cook right tackle to MIN 45 for -1 yards (L.Floyd).

Drive 7: All passes but after Drive 6, it's hard to blame Stefanski for trying to change it up

Drive 8: Again, Cook goes backwards

1st & 10 at CHI 18
(13:44 - 4th) D.Cook left end to CHI 20 for -2 yards (L.Floyd).

Drive 9: TD drive but mainly passing w/ Cook picking up a 1-yard 1st down

2nd & 1 at MIN 35
(7:57 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Cook left guard to MIN 36 for 1 yard (A.Hicks).

Drive 10 is with time running out so all passes and a second TD.

So you have multiple drives where they're trying to feed Cook the ball and he goes for negative yards. People love to rail on Cousins but it's incredibly hard to convert 2nd and 11 or 2nd and 12. It's even harder when it's 2nd and 2 and your running backs have two shots and gain zero. Other than the 2nd drive, the running game did almost nothing and it was actually Cousins moving the sticks.

Granted, this is just one game but it's the only game where JDF isn't in the equation against a good team. Meanwhile Trubisky was enjoying a lot of 2nd and 4's or 5's. It's a huge difference. I think this team could run against teams that couldn't stop anyone against the run, similar to the garbage time/stat padding that gets brought up for QB's. But against good teams? I just don't recall them being able to do it.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:18 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:02 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:13 pm


So Melvin Gordon and Ezekiel Elliott could only do it in some games too? Alvin Kamara? Etc. Because they averaged the right about the same YPC that Cook did. Like I said, Arizona was a team that TRULY couldnt run block. DJ averaged 3.6 YPC. That's a top 5 RB in the NFL averaging under 3.6 YPC. That is a sure sign of an OL unable to run block. If you're averaging 4.6 YPC, your OL can run block decent enough to run way more than ~350 times on the year. Cook had the 19th best YPC in the NFL for RBs. But averaged WAY less carries per game than some of them did because of our OC. In the 18 games Zeke played in this year, he carried the ball 16 or more times in 16 of those 18 games. Dalvin Cook carried the ball more than 16 times in 1 of the 11 games he played (and the one he did, he went for 136 yards, a career high). Ezekiel Elliott averaged 4.7 YPC on the year. Dalvin Cook averaged 4.6. Sorry but I cant bring myself to say that this OL wasnt good at run blocking. They werent good, but they certainly werent "bad". It was enough to manage is my point.
An average is more telling the more data points you have, in this case, number of carries. It's easier to skew with less carries because you have more outliers. Comparing a workhorse like Zeke to Cook is tough because Zeke is going to have a more accurate distribution. CJ Anderson's YPC looks great right now but it would surely fall over a full season of carries. I don't think anyone here thinks he's a 6 YPC runner.

This is what Stefanski and our OL did against the Bears:

Drive 1: We needed TWO yards and had two plays to do so, we got zero.
2nd & 2 at MIN 33
(14:26 - 1st) D.Cook right tackle to MIN 34 for 1 yard (L.Floyd).

3rd & 1 at MIN 34
(13:41 - 1st) L.Murray right guard to MIN 33 for -1 yards (A.Hicks)

Drive 2: Here you see a little more momentum until Murray gets stuffed behind the line resulting in a 3rd and 5.

1st & 10 at MIN 40
(5:58 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to MIN 42 for 2 yards (L.Floyd).

2nd & 10 at CHI 38
(4:29 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook left end to CHI 31 for 7 yards (B.Nichols).

3rd & 3 at CHI 31
(3:42 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to CHI 25 for 6 yards (K.Fuller).

1st & 10 at CHI 25
(2:57 - 1st) L.Murray right tackle to CHI 19 for 6 yards (R.Smith).

2nd & 4 at CHI 19
(2:15 - 1st) L.Murray right tackle to CHI 20 for -1 yards (A.Hicks).

Drive 3: One run for one yard

2nd & 10 at MIN 32
(14:07 - 2nd) L.Murray right end to MIN 33 for 1 yard (R.Smith).

Drive 4: No runs but a pass to Cook goes for -5 yards

Drive 5: 50 seconds left so passing situation

Drive 6: Drive 6 starts and ends similarly to Drive 1. Cook gets the ball on both 1st downs and goes backwards both times. Cousins manages to pick up the 1st in between.

1st & 10 at MIN 24
(11:22 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to MIN 23 for -1 yards (A.Hicks).

1st & 10 at MIN 46
(9:35 - 3rd) D.Cook right tackle to MIN 45 for -1 yards (L.Floyd).

Drive 7: All passes but after Drive 6, it's hard to blame Stefanski for trying to change it up

Drive 8: Again, Cook goes backwards

1st & 10 at CHI 18
(13:44 - 4th) D.Cook left end to CHI 20 for -2 yards (L.Floyd).

Drive 9: TD drive but mainly passing w/ Cook picking up a 1-yard 1st down

2nd & 1 at MIN 35
(7:57 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Cook left guard to MIN 36 for 1 yard (A.Hicks).

Drive 10 is with time running out so all passes and a second TD.

So you have multiple drives where they're trying to feed Cook the ball and he goes for negative yards. People love to rail on Cousins but it's incredibly hard to convert 2nd and 11 or 2nd and 12. It's even harder when it's 2nd and 2 and your running backs have two shots and gain zero. Other than the 2nd drive, the running game did almost nothing and it was actually Cousins moving the sticks.

Granted, this is just one game but it's the only game where JDF isn't in the equation against a good team. Meanwhile Trubisky was enjoying a lot of 2nd and 4's or 5's. It's a huge difference. I think this team could run against teams that couldn't stop anyone against the run, similar to the garbage time/stat padding that gets brought up for QB's. But against good teams? I just don't recall them being able to do it.
Overall, excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to look this stuff up. Here are a few things I'd like to add in:

I dont really look at it as "good teams vs bad teams". For example, Buffalo is a "bad team" but they have an excellent defense. Arizona is a "bad team" but they have a really good pass defense. The Lions are a "bad team" but have a good run defense. And so on.... So in turn, the Lions (x2), Seahawks and Patriots all have solid run defenses (10th, 11th and 13th). Cook had a good amount of success running against these teams. But was only given the ball 48 times in these games. That is an average of 12 carries per game. THAT is a problem.

And again, the first Detroit game where he was back from injury, his 70 yard run, covered up some of the struggles early on in the run game. BUT, this is the point of why you keep pounding it throughout the game. Because Cook can break a run like that at any time. AP was the same way. Do you know how many times AP probably got stuffed at the line early and often? A ton! Take that Denver game for example in 2015 because that is one that just popped in my head. He had a 48 yard burst for a TD which put us right back in the game, however the rest of his stats.....15 carries for 33 yards. But with a RB like that, we KNEW, he could break one at any moment and were going to continue pounding it all game. Flip SHOULD know that with Cook. And somehow he didnt. Even with Murray. Granted if we are down by 20 in the 4th quarter, we shouldnt be running. But that was hardly ever the case.

There was a reason the bears were #1 in the NFL in run defense. To say Cook didnt do good that game and our OL cant run block against good teams isnt an accurate statement IMO. NOBODY did good against the bears. Todd Gurley, the #1 RB in the NFL on the #1 offense in the NFL had 11 carries for 28 yards against them. And why McVay bailed on the run vs. them baffles me too given the score was close the entire game. But does that mean the Rams cant run block? Since Gurley ran for and averaged less yards against the Bears than even Cook did that final game? No.

Again by no means am I saying our OL was "good" at run blocking. But they were decent enough to be successful at it if the OC stayed committed to the run IMO. Of course we can nitpick good games and bad games. But in the end, I keep saying this, nobody can tell me we "can't run the ball successfully with Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray in our backfield if we stayed committed to it". I dont care if there are 5 trash cans out there lol. Our backfield is too talented to not be successful.

Also, this is not me speaking to you directly just more in general. Again, I think this was an excellent post and thank you for taking the time to add that detail.

Side note: I agree as well with the whole guys ragging on Cousins when he has to convert 2nd and 12's more often than not against these teams with legit run defenses.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:47 pm

It's easier to talk about being committed to the run then it is to actually BE committed to the run. When your first six run attempts go nowhere in a game, and you aren't converting needed 3rd downs, you find yourself punting early and often, and possibly having your defense out on the field for a good bit of time. I thin that's what happened a lot with Flip. It looked like he tried to establish a run game, but instead saw the team going 3 and out for several of the early possessions in games. At some point he just wanted to get some first downs.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:18 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:47 pm
It's easier to talk about being committed to the run then it is to actually BE committed to the run. When your first six run attempts go nowhere in a game, and you aren't converting needed 3rd downs, you find yourself punting early and often, and possibly having your defense out on the field for a good bit of time. I thin that's what happened a lot with Flip. It looked like he tried to establish a run game, but instead saw the team going 3 and out for several of the early possessions in games. At some point he just wanted to get some first downs.
So what was the reason Cook didnt get the ball more than 9 times vs NE? Or in either of the Detroit games why wasnt he getting the ball more? That wasnt the case. There were multiple drives where on 1st and 10, Cook goes for 4-7 yards. But was still only getting 10 carries a game. He was literally dominating NE and carried the ball 9 times. Teams have rough starts running the ball every week. But it's about committing to it. Trying to run Cook on each 1st down the first 3 chances you get, and they dont work, doesnt mean you bail on the run game. That is a poor excuse for Flip if that's his defense. If that was how you should approach the run game, teams would bail on the run week after week. Not just the Vikings
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:40 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:18 pm
S197 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:02 pm


An average is more telling the more data points you have, in this case, number of carries. It's easier to skew with less carries because you have more outliers. Comparing a workhorse like Zeke to Cook is tough because Zeke is going to have a more accurate distribution. CJ Anderson's YPC looks great right now but it would surely fall over a full season of carries. I don't think anyone here thinks he's a 6 YPC runner.

This is what Stefanski and our OL did against the Bears:

Drive 1: We needed TWO yards and had two plays to do so, we got zero.
2nd & 2 at MIN 33
(14:26 - 1st) D.Cook right tackle to MIN 34 for 1 yard (L.Floyd).

3rd & 1 at MIN 34
(13:41 - 1st) L.Murray right guard to MIN 33 for -1 yards (A.Hicks)

Drive 2: Here you see a little more momentum until Murray gets stuffed behind the line resulting in a 3rd and 5.

1st & 10 at MIN 40
(5:58 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to MIN 42 for 2 yards (L.Floyd).

2nd & 10 at CHI 38
(4:29 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook left end to CHI 31 for 7 yards (B.Nichols).

3rd & 3 at CHI 31
(3:42 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to CHI 25 for 6 yards (K.Fuller).

1st & 10 at CHI 25
(2:57 - 1st) L.Murray right tackle to CHI 19 for 6 yards (R.Smith).

2nd & 4 at CHI 19
(2:15 - 1st) L.Murray right tackle to CHI 20 for -1 yards (A.Hicks).

Drive 3: One run for one yard

2nd & 10 at MIN 32
(14:07 - 2nd) L.Murray right end to MIN 33 for 1 yard (R.Smith).

Drive 4: No runs but a pass to Cook goes for -5 yards

Drive 5: 50 seconds left so passing situation

Drive 6: Drive 6 starts and ends similarly to Drive 1. Cook gets the ball on both 1st downs and goes backwards both times. Cousins manages to pick up the 1st in between.

1st & 10 at MIN 24
(11:22 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Cook right end to MIN 23 for -1 yards (A.Hicks).

1st & 10 at MIN 46
(9:35 - 3rd) D.Cook right tackle to MIN 45 for -1 yards (L.Floyd).

Drive 7: All passes but after Drive 6, it's hard to blame Stefanski for trying to change it up

Drive 8: Again, Cook goes backwards

1st & 10 at CHI 18
(13:44 - 4th) D.Cook left end to CHI 20 for -2 yards (L.Floyd).

Drive 9: TD drive but mainly passing w/ Cook picking up a 1-yard 1st down

2nd & 1 at MIN 35
(7:57 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Cook left guard to MIN 36 for 1 yard (A.Hicks).

Drive 10 is with time running out so all passes and a second TD.

So you have multiple drives where they're trying to feed Cook the ball and he goes for negative yards. People love to rail on Cousins but it's incredibly hard to convert 2nd and 11 or 2nd and 12. It's even harder when it's 2nd and 2 and your running backs have two shots and gain zero. Other than the 2nd drive, the running game did almost nothing and it was actually Cousins moving the sticks.

Granted, this is just one game but it's the only game where JDF isn't in the equation against a good team. Meanwhile Trubisky was enjoying a lot of 2nd and 4's or 5's. It's a huge difference. I think this team could run against teams that couldn't stop anyone against the run, similar to the garbage time/stat padding that gets brought up for QB's. But against good teams? I just don't recall them being able to do it.
Overall, excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to look this stuff up. Here are a few things I'd like to add in:

I dont really look at it as "good teams vs bad teams". For example, Buffalo is a "bad team" but they have an excellent defense. Arizona is a "bad team" but they have a really good pass defense. The Lions are a "bad team" but have a good run defense. And so on.... So in turn, the Lions (x2), Seahawks and Patriots all have solid run defenses (10th, 11th and 13th). Cook had a good amount of success running against these teams. But was only given the ball 48 times in these games. That is an average of 12 carries per game. THAT is a problem.

And again, the first Detroit game where he was back from injury, his 70 yard run, covered up some of the struggles early on in the run game. BUT, this is the point of why you keep pounding it throughout the game. Because Cook can break a run like that at any time. AP was the same way. Do you know how many times AP probably got stuffed at the line early and often? A ton! Take that Denver game for example in 2015 because that is one that just popped in my head. He had a 48 yard burst for a TD which put us right back in the game, however the rest of his stats.....15 carries for 33 yards. But with a RB like that, we KNEW, he could break one at any moment and were going to continue pounding it all game. Flip SHOULD know that with Cook. And somehow he didnt. Even with Murray. Granted if we are down by 20 in the 4th quarter, we shouldnt be running. But that was hardly ever the case.

There was a reason the bears were #1 in the NFL in run defense. To say Cook didnt do good that game and our OL cant run block against good teams isnt an accurate statement IMO. NOBODY did good against the bears. Todd Gurley, the #1 RB in the NFL on the #1 offense in the NFL had 11 carries for 28 yards against them. And why McVay bailed on the run vs. them baffles me too given the score was close the entire game. But does that mean the Rams cant run block? Since Gurley ran for and averaged less yards against the Bears than even Cook did that final game? No.

Again by no means am I saying our OL was "good" at run blocking. But they were decent enough to be successful at it if the OC stayed committed to the run IMO. Of course we can nitpick good games and bad games. But in the end, I keep saying this, nobody can tell me we "can't run the ball successfully with Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray in our backfield if we stayed committed to it". I dont care if there are 5 trash cans out there lol. Our backfield is too talented to not be successful.

Also, this is not me speaking to you directly just more in general. Again, I think this was an excellent post and thank you for taking the time to add that detail.

Side note: I agree as well with the whole guys ragging on Cousins when he has to convert 2nd and 12's more often than not against these teams with legit run defenses.
Not sure if you just meant the Bears game specifically, but Cousins had the 13th fewest 2nd and 12+ in the NFL.
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:20 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:40 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:18 pm


Overall, excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to look this stuff up. Here are a few things I'd like to add in:

I dont really look at it as "good teams vs bad teams". For example, Buffalo is a "bad team" but they have an excellent defense. Arizona is a "bad team" but they have a really good pass defense. The Lions are a "bad team" but have a good run defense. And so on.... So in turn, the Lions (x2), Seahawks and Patriots all have solid run defenses (10th, 11th and 13th). Cook had a good amount of success running against these teams. But was only given the ball 48 times in these games. That is an average of 12 carries per game. THAT is a problem.

And again, the first Detroit game where he was back from injury, his 70 yard run, covered up some of the struggles early on in the run game. BUT, this is the point of why you keep pounding it throughout the game. Because Cook can break a run like that at any time. AP was the same way. Do you know how many times AP probably got stuffed at the line early and often? A ton! Take that Denver game for example in 2015 because that is one that just popped in my head. He had a 48 yard burst for a TD which put us right back in the game, however the rest of his stats.....15 carries for 33 yards. But with a RB like that, we KNEW, he could break one at any moment and were going to continue pounding it all game. Flip SHOULD know that with Cook. And somehow he didnt. Even with Murray. Granted if we are down by 20 in the 4th quarter, we shouldnt be running. But that was hardly ever the case.

There was a reason the bears were #1 in the NFL in run defense. To say Cook didnt do good that game and our OL cant run block against good teams isnt an accurate statement IMO. NOBODY did good against the bears. Todd Gurley, the #1 RB in the NFL on the #1 offense in the NFL had 11 carries for 28 yards against them. And why McVay bailed on the run vs. them baffles me too given the score was close the entire game. But does that mean the Rams cant run block? Since Gurley ran for and averaged less yards against the Bears than even Cook did that final game? No.

Again by no means am I saying our OL was "good" at run blocking. But they were decent enough to be successful at it if the OC stayed committed to the run IMO. Of course we can nitpick good games and bad games. But in the end, I keep saying this, nobody can tell me we "can't run the ball successfully with Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray in our backfield if we stayed committed to it". I dont care if there are 5 trash cans out there lol. Our backfield is too talented to not be successful.

Also, this is not me speaking to you directly just more in general. Again, I think this was an excellent post and thank you for taking the time to add that detail.

Side note: I agree as well with the whole guys ragging on Cousins when he has to convert 2nd and 12's more often than not against these teams with legit run defenses.
Not sure if you just meant the Bears game specifically, but Cousins had the 13th fewest 2nd and 12+ in the NFL.
I’m not talking specifically 2nd and 12. Just 2nd and 3rd and longs in general
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StumpHunter
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:59 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:20 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:40 pm


Not sure if you just meant the Bears game specifically, but Cousins had the 13th fewest 2nd and 12+ in the NFL.
I’m not talking specifically 2nd and 12. Just 2nd and 3rd and longs in general
As I posted earlier, the Vikings were on average in very good shape on 3rd down, significantly better than Case, Bradford or Teddy ever were. A lot of that is a testament to how good the Vikings were on 2nd down, because their distance to gain on that down was below average this year.

However, Cousins was absolutely terrible on 3rd down this season. Surprisingly, he was worse than even Bradford at converting 3rd downs, but I think Bradford was pretty much automatic on 3rd and 5 or shorter, and anything longer he was not going convert.

Interestingly, Case Keenum, who was better at converting 3rd downs than Brett Favre was for us, Absolutely sucked this year at converting 3rd downs, and was just really bad on that down in general. He went from converting 43% of his dropbacks to 29%, his YPA dropped to a horrible 5.2 and had a 66.5 passer rating. This despite Denver being above average in yards to gain on 3rd down. That is even worse than when he was with the Rams in 2016.

To get back on topic, we were already in good shape on 3rd down as far as yards to gain, the key will be adding a WR like a Wright, who is a really good on 3rd down, and shoring up the line so Cousins can have all day to find an open WR past the sticks. We do that and the offense will be back in the top 10.
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fiestavike
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Re: My Plan to Fix the Vikings

Post by fiestavike » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:24 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:59 am

To get back on topic, we were already in good shape on 3rd down as far as yards to gain, the key will be adding a WR like a Wright, who is a really good on 3rd down, and shoring up the line so Cousins can have all day to find an open WR past the sticks. We do that and the offense will be back in the top 10.
I think Diggs and Thielen are pretty excellent 3rd down WRs, who are both quick, decisive, violent and versatile. Beebe looks like a very promising 3rd down option to me too. Yet again, starting Treadwell all season in place of a better option on the bench is another example of one of this regimes greatest weaknesses. They just don't get the best players on the field. And of course, Cousins played very poorly this year, and I think they'll have to scheme around him to find much success going forward.
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