**Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by dead_poet » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:33 pm

nfcnorthchamps25 wrote:Just a thought, but doesnt Robison have some experience at DT? If he could play inside some it could allow us to get Griffin on the field more.

I know there was some talk of having JA, Robison, and Griffin all on the field for passing downs but I guess i just dont know how they plan on doing it. I think its something they could do more than just in passing situations to get our best players on the field.
That's what happened when Edwards was here. Now that the linebacker experiment has largely been nixed it would be a wise idea. Last I read is that he might stand up as a LB or put his hand down in obvious pass-rush situations to keep defenses guessing. I am curious how dropping the weight will affect him at DE. If he lost fat without sacrificing much strength, he could excel in such a role. I'll be anxious to see how he's used (other than on special teams).
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by dead_poet » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:35 pm

Several #Vikings defenders laid down on Adrian Peterson's first snap yesterday. Chad Greenway said Peterson wasn't amused.
Greenway: "He was mad about that. He doesn’t want to have anybody let up on him. You know how he is, his mentality. But he looks good."
Christian Ponder continues to say the #Vikings goal is to make the playoffs and he thinks that's realistic. Not aiming low. Ponder: "The underdog position is kind of a good position to be in ... People are counting us out but internally we have high expectations."
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by dead_poet » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:47 pm

Finishing strong

Wednesday's practice was the Vikings' last here, and the tempo was as high as it has been at any point in camp.

The offense had one of its best days, with Ponder in team drills completing 8 of 9 passes, including a remarkable connection up the seam to tight end Kyle Rudolph with backup linebacker Marvin Mitchell hanging on Rudolph's back.

The defense also had its share of highlights -- most notable, an interception of a Joe Webb pass by rookie cornerback Josh Robinson, who appears to be over his hamstring issue and worked with the second-string nickel defense.

"You just want to come out and just finish," Greenway said. "You don't want to have to go in and have it be a labor. You don't want to go in (Wednesday night) to the team meeting like, 'Well, we didn't want to have a practice like that. We're going into the second (preseason game on Friday against Buffalo), we didn't perform that well in the first game' and have this whole bad feeling going to Winter Park."

The Vikings were scheduled to hold a closed walkthrough on Thursday morning before departing for the Twin Cities.
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Note ... ense081512
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by Demi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:52 pm

Christian Ponder continues to say the #Vikings goal is to make the playoffs and he thinks that's realistic.
Yeah, ok, stay in your reality. You're probably a better passer there too.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by Purple bruise » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:03 pm

Man that would be upsetting to some people if Ponder got this team to the play-offs in the next two years. I can't imagine the complaining and excuses that woud be made up. Not only do I hope Ponder does it, I expect him to. :D
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by Demi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:08 pm

Purple bruise wrote:Man that would be upsetting to some people if Ponder got this team to the play-offs in the next two years. I can't imagine the complaining and excuses that woud be made up. Not only do I hope Ponder does it, I expect him to. :D
And if he didn't get us to the playoffs. Would you be "upset" with him? I didn't think so. Just like no one would be upset if he got us there. Complaining? Excuses? LMAO, you must share the reality Ponder is in.

Feel free to expect all you want though, people expected TJoke to not suck the entire time he was here, how'd that work out for them? :roll:
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Purple bruise wrote:Man that would be upsetting to some people if Ponder got this team to the play-offs in the next two years. I can't imagine the complaining and excuses that woud be made up. Not only do I hope Ponder does it, I expect him to. :D
What do you base your opion Ponder will bring us to the playoffs this year? Nothing wrong with being optimisitic, but from my watching Ponder play, I expect nothing from him. To each his own.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by smoothoperator » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:22 pm

Man it's annoying listening to some of you constantly complain about ponder. The guy hasn't even had one full season and the majority of you write him off, which is hilarious. Guarantee if ponder does well this year and gets us to the playoffs you naysayers will say it was luck. He puts up better numbers than several elite qbs rookie years, with terrible wrs(aside from harvin), yet it's not enough because hes not Aaron Rodgers. If Rodgers had not had 3 years to study the game he would have had issues as well. Sorry for the rant, but damn some of the pessimism you project is beyond annoying.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by Demi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:54 pm

smoothoperator wrote:Man it's annoying listening to some of you constantly complain about ponder. The guy hasn't even had one full season and the majority of you write him off, which is hilarious. Guarantee if ponder does well this year and gets us to the playoffs you naysayers will say it was luck. He puts up better numbers than several elite qbs rookie years, with terrible wrs(aside from harvin), yet it's not enough because hes not Aaron Rodgers. If Rodgers had not had 3 years to study the game he would have had issues as well. Sorry for the rant, but damn some of the pessimism you project is beyond annoying.
It's also annoying to listen to some fo you constantly talk the guy up and make excuses for him. He had just as much time as Cam and Dalton. Who looked much better (but that was the other players, and not their actual skills...of course)

Every player is better than they are. Every decision by the coaches or front office is unquestionable. Ponder just needs another year. A full offseason, two years. Better players around him. And on and on. The same garbage the "pessimists" had to put up with when TJoke was here. Or Williamson. Or the dozens of other bums people talk up because they're "their guys" on "their team".

If Toby starts the entire year, and we make playoffs, did we do it because Toby is just so amazing? If Ponder has an average year, and looks average, are you going to roll out the parade and start chiseling his bust? "Patience, Patience". Fine, you be patient. Meanwhile some of us will watch Ponder, look at his history, his various attributes, and come to a conclusion about how he projects going forward.

Sorry for the rant, but honestly some of the optimism around here is beyond annoying. And it's the same every year. No player is ever bad, until they're cut. No coach is ever incompetent, until they're fired. Can't pass any judgement or make any statements until a situation has resolved itself completely.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by TuffJuff » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:06 pm

^Yeah and some of the complaining on here is getting really annoying. I dont post often, but I have followed this site for years and Demi you are the most annoying person on here by far. Are you even a Vikings fan? I dont think I have ever read anything positive from you and I am sick of it. You ridicule Ponder for saying he thinks we can make the playoffs? What do you want him to say? Every team's goal in every sport is to make the playoffs and win a championship.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by dead_poet » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:27 pm

Demi wrote:He had just as much time as Cam and Dalton.
This is not entirely accurate. Newton and Dalton were brought in to be the unquestioned starters on their respective squads. If you recall, McNabb got all of the starting reps last year until mid-season, which does have an impact. And unlike Newton and Dalton, Ponder was playing injured for the latter parts of the season as well (thanks in large part to a poor offensive line that has since hopefully improved). But Ponder had/has his shortcomings and his decision-making and accuracy were not good enough.
Every player is better than they are. Every decision by the coaches or front office is unquestionable. Ponder just needs another year. A full offseason, two years.


I know expectations for rookies are higher now than they've ever been, but it seems as though prior to the success of Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco it was assumed that rookies would struggle for at least a year — as they had for decades — before as they get acclimated to new teammates, coaches, system, terminology and the general speed of the game. Not every quarterback is going to be a franchise guy "overnight" (see: over the course of half or an entire season). I know in today's game fans demand it, but GMs have the patience to stick with their investment and give them a realistic chance to succeed (forming pieces around them in the process) before cutting bait.

Quarterbacks do improve with time. They also can get worse or stay the same. The issue with Ponder is that many of us don't know where he falls. A handfull of games does not make for a good sample size to make conclusions one way or the other (IMO). I recall two players I really didn't care for (based primarily on their performance) were Shiancoe and Cedric Griffin. But after a few seasons they became very viable starters and contributors and I changed my tune. The same can be said for John Sullivan. If you search my comments, you'll find I was very critical of the guy. Now he's one of the top-5 centers in the league.

Bottom line: Ponder (like many second-year players) needs opportunities. Generally, it's said that WRs need three seasons before "the light comes on." I don't know why all of a sudden quarterbacks (arguably a more difficult, demanding position) should get any less time to prove themselves.
"Patience, Patience". Fine, you be patient. Meanwhile some of us will watch Ponder, look at his history, his various attributes, and come to a conclusion about how he projects going forward.
I suppose it comes down to how many games you need to see. For some, it's a handfull. Maybe as little as three (or zero if someone really didn't like the guy coming out of college). For others, it's 32. For the really patient ones, 46. I guess I'll always give a guy at least two years (unless they are beyond-a-doubt hopeless/awful) before forming an opinion (quarterbacks maybe more due to the demand of the position). For me, my number is probably 32, and that's probably shrunk thanks to the pain of watching Tarvaris nondevelop. Like a Sleep Number bed, everyone has their preference.
No player is ever bad, until they're cut.
Kevin Murphy is bad.
No coach is ever incompetent, until they're fired.
Two words: Brad Childress.
Can't pass any judgement or make any statements until a situation has resolved itself completely.
I don't think that's the case. I think a lot of people form opinions on players/coaches well before a decision about their future with the team has been decided. A lot of people soured on Williamson well before he left. Same goes for Tarvaris and Ryan Cook, to name a couple of recent players. Again, many want to give some players either the benefit of the doubt or at the very least time and opportunities to show one way or the other.
Last edited by dead_poet on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by Demi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:30 pm

You ridicule Ponder for saying he thinks we can make the playoffs? What do you want him to say?
Not that the thinks it's realistic for a rebuilding 3 win team to make the playoffs. Because it isn't realistic. Not even close. And if he believes it (which I doubt very much) then he's an idiot. There were plenty of things he could have said, and he's said plenty of things, none of them as preposterous as this.
Two words: Brad Childress.
And while many of us where pointing out if we ever DID get close to a super bowl, Coach Clueless would find a way to screw it up all by himself, others defended him until the bitter end. Even when he was alienating players and making terrible decisions. Childress is the perfect example of a guy who was clearly in over his head, and yet plenty of us who pointed it out were attacked as "pessimists" and our fanhood questioned.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by dead_poet » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:46 pm

Demi wrote:And while many of us where pointing out if we ever DID get close to a super bowl, Coach Clueless would find a way to screw it up all by himself, others defended him until the bitter end.
I think you'll find those fans in the distinct minority. I recall many ESPN fan polls that had Childress decisively at the bottom with thousands of more votes than nearly every other coach.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by Demi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:12 pm

I'm a fan of Harvin, he's a good player. But he's not a true receiver, and he needs to stay healthy. Why is this construed as meaning I don't like him as a player? It's also pretty low to ask for a new contract with two years left on you current one...during the offseason before the 1st of the two years. He's had issues in college and they continue here.

Of course I could root for Ponder, and I do root for him. Doesn't change my opinion that he isn't even an average quarterback, and likely his ceiling is just that, an average quarterback. Do you want me to jump on board and talk about his great attitude? That's how a QB should act? Maybe when he proves he's a capable NFL starting QB. The only thing I detest is what this team has become.

I'm a Vikings fan. Not a Ponder fan. Or a Harvin fan. If they're good for the team, I'll be behind them 100%. I think Ponder does more harm than good for this team. That doesn't change the fact I'll cheer for him on Sundays.

I was a fan of the Vikings before every player coach and owner was a Viking. And I'll be a fan after every one of them is no longer a Viking. And while they are here, I'm going to call them like I see them. I know part of being a fan to some people is to stop being objective about most aspects of the team, but some people can be a fan, and still be objective. And the minute you say anything negative while being objective, you're labeled a pessimist. If I say I don't think RGIII is going to have a terribly successful NFL career, I'm not going to be savaged here. But question Ponder? Oh boy now you've done it. The double standard is ridiculous. And it goes for almost every player on the roster.
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Re: **Official '12 Vikings Training Camp Thread

Post by losperros » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:21 pm

Demi wrote:I'm a fan of Harvin, he's a good player. But he's not a true receiver, and he needs to stay healthy. Why is this construed as meaning I don't like him as a player? It's also pretty low to ask for a new contract with two years left on you current one...during the offseason before the 1st of the two years. He's had issues in college and they continue here.

Of course I could root for Ponder, and I do root for him. Doesn't change my opinion that he isn't even an average quarterback, and likely his ceiling is just that, an average quarterback. Do you want me to jump on board and talk about his great attitude? That's how a QB should act? Maybe when he proves he's a capable NFL starting QB. The only thing I detest is what this team has become.

I'm a Vikings fan. Not a Ponder fan. Or a Harvin fan. If they're good for the team, I'll be behind them 100%. I think Ponder does more harm than good for this team. That doesn't change the fact I'll cheer for him on Sundays.

I was a fan of the Vikings before every player coach and owner was a Viking. And I'll be a fan after every one of them is no longer a Viking. And while they are here, I'm going to call them like I see them. I know part of being a fan to some people is to stop being objective about most aspects of the team, but some people can be a fan, and still be objective. And the minute you say anything negative while being objective, you're labeled a pessimist. If I say I don't think RGIII is going to have a terribly successful NFL career, I'm not going to be savaged here. But question Ponder? Oh boy now you've done it. The double standard is ridiculous. And it goes for almost every player on the roster.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my now disappeared post. Did I accidentally delete it or something? Weird.

Anyway, yeah, I understand what you're saying, except for the "I'm a fan of Harvin" and not a Harvin fan contradiction three paragraphs later. But still, I think I know what you're saying. Sounds fair enough.

I don't have a problem with you doubting Ponder's ability, especially at this point, though it's become a redundant rant for you (and that's the real rub because you can do better). As for the double standard, there simply isn't one. You might be fed up with those who still believe in Ponder but that's a door that swings both ways. I imagine the correct answer is "wait and see," which is what I'm going to do. I see more skill in him than you do, but I sure as heck won't bet that it will translate to the NFL. I've seen what I considered even better athletes fail in the pro league before.
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